Letters from Former Friends with Responses
(The names of friends, pastors and churchs that I personally know have been changed or deleted so as to protect identities and specific individuals involved).
Letter From George (10/1/05)
Hey Dan,
Next semester I will be reading James Dunn and will be able to address for myself whether or not Shawn is accurately portraying Dunn's Christological views. However, whatever conclusions Shawn has arrived at from his inquiry of Dunn, do not forget, Dunn believes in the Deity of Jesus (i.e. Jesus is God). This view is confirmed from Dr. Kennard who has not only read Dunn's work but has also spoken with him personally concerning these very issues. The same accounts for other exegetes like N.T. Wright (who believes Jesus is God). I hope Shawn and you both continue to read such scholars.Dan, you know that I love you, and because I in fact do love you, I am cutting off fellowship with you. This is in accordance with the church discipline that was first taken by Pastor X and the elders at Evangelical Free Church of X (which was done in person and through a letter) because they regard you as a false teacher. Once you began passing out books and tapes you crossed the line from merely asking questions as a truth seeker to becoming a teacher of your doubts. You began teaching a doctrine against the Deity of Jesus (one of the core doctrines of Christianity) through skepticism. Skepticism is in fact a vehicle of propagation and teaching and not merely a innocent cry for the truth. You may sincerely think you are seeking the truth, but what you currently hold as truth we regard as a lie concerning who Jesus is. Because of this I agree with the actions of Evangelical Free Church of X and also regard you as a living in sin by being a false teacher. You teach against the doctrine of the Deity of Jesus Christ, and likewise the personhood of the Holy Spirit. Although you do not count your views as being worthy of church discipline, I disagree.
This is not a rash decision, nor is it only my view, but is in agreement with seven people whom I highly respect and view as wise counselors: Pastor Y, Jose DeSilve, Dr. Douglas Kennard, Dr. Kurt Wise, Dr. Robert Fouts, Matt Benson, and Pastor X.
I know that you do not see your differing view as being sin, but I disagree.
If you come to a point where you testify that Jesus is Deity, then I would love to reestablish fellowship with you.
I am not telling you what to choose, that is up to you. But I am convinced you are living in sin.
I love you Dan.
Sincerely,
George
Response to George (10/2/05)
Geroge, I thought that your e-mail deserved a
section by section response as I can see that you have done a lot
of thinking about this issue. I just think you need to do some more.
Next semester I will be reading James Dunn and will be able to address for myself whether or not Shawn is accurately portraying Dunn's Christological views.
This
will not be that difficult. All you will need to do is look up the
quotations from the paper as they are all documented. Unless you do a
paper specifically on Dunn's Christology, you probably will never see
the books that are mentioned. Unless you think Shawn made up fake
quotations, Dunn speaks for himself. The paper is largely just quotes
straight from Dunn, not much portraying going on.
However, whatever conclusions Shawn has arrived at from his inquiry of Dunn, do not forget, Dunn believes in the Deity of Jesus (i.e. Jesus is God). This view is confirmed from Dr. Kennard who has not only read Dunn's work but has also spoken with him personally concerning these very issues.
How and why would you say something like this
after you've read the quotations straight out of the horses mouth?
This is the difference between second hand and first hand source. So
and so said that thus and such happened. It would also be important to
find out when Dr. Kennard spoke to Dunn. It is clear that Dunn once
thought that only John taught a literal, personal pre-existence of the
son of God, and now he has changed his perspective. He says, "To speak
of Christ as himself preexistence, coming down from heaven, and so
forth, has to be seen as metaphorical; otherwise it leads inevitably to
some kind of polytheism." So no, Dunn does not believe in the Deity of
Jesus in the same way that you or you profs do. I also have a
discussion between N.T. Wright and Dunn where Wright tries to get Dunn
to acknowledge that Jesus is God and Dunn refuses to do so.
The same accounts for other exegetes like N.T. Wright (who believes Jesus is God). I hope Shwan and you both continue to read such scholars.
Yes, this is true. He has written many articles placing Jesus within the Shema.
Dan, you know that I love you, and because I in fact do love you, I am cutting off fellowship with you.
Since when have you been fellowshiping with
me? You have not spoken to me as, or considered me a brother for about
5 years. You've made it more than clear on repeated occasions that I'm
destined for hell. You've said and sang that we are on different
paths. You cut off fellowship (worshiping together, taking communion
together, evangelizing together, considering one another as part of
God's family) a long, long time ago.
This is in accordance with the church discipline that was first taken by Pastor X and the elders at
Evangelical Free Church of X (which was done in person and through a letter) because they regard you as a false teacher.
We are all "false teachers" in one way or
another aren't we? It just depends on which doctrines one chooses to
make central. It sure seems to me that the Trinity is an arbitrary
doctrine to choose since there is no clear proposition statement
regarding it, but must be construed and inferred by using a collection
of ambiguous texts. The simple, "if you confess with your mouth that
Jesus is Lord and believe in your heat that God raised him from the
dead, you will be saved" is discarded for assent to a null/empty
contradictory proposition. One which is ultimately said to be beyond
understanding, one that is at the end of the day a mystery.
once you began passing out books and tapes you crossed the line from merely asking questions as a truth seeker to becoming a teacher of your doubts.
I've always passed out books and tapes on all
issues. This is what Drop Knee ministry was all about - Education. Of
course I wanted people to read and consider the things that were
convincing me as would any human being. This also brings more people
into the discussion, and since I am fallible, it protects me from
tunnel vision. I benefit from other peoples comments, questions,
criticisms and so forth. Not only that, but it also enables people to
relate to me even if they don't agree with me. You did the same with
James Whites book, did you not? Did this place you out of the category
of a truth seeker, and into one of a teacher of doubts (you could be
said to be doubting that God is one person)?
You began teaching a doctrine against the Deity of Jesus (one of the core doctrines of Christianity) through skepticism. Skepticism is in fact a vehicle of propagation and teaching and not merely a innocent cry for the truth.
It seems to me that we all need a healthy dose
of skepticism. The reason that there are suicide bombers, people
involved in self-mutilation, 1 billion Roman Catholics, and 1 billion
Muslims resides largely because there is not enough skepticism. People
need to question their authorities, otherwise they will always think
and believe whatever they are raised in. Truth is not born out of
accepting and trusting the powers that be. Also, one of the best ways to learn is by using the Socratic method, which is based on questioning and dialoging on issues.
You may sincerely think you are seeking the truth, but what you currently hold as truth we regard as a lie concerning who Jesus is.
The harsh language you use is indicative that
you think there are no other/alternative viable interpretations. I
acknowledge that my understanding is derived from my fallible
interpretation of the Scriptures. God has not spoken to me to confirm
or correct my understanding of Jesus. I try to do the best that I know
how when it comes to these things. Who lied to me? Who knew the
truth, but taught me otherwise?
Because of this I agree with the actions of Evangelical Free Church X and also regard you as a living in sin by being a false teacher.
You make it sound as though I know I'm doing
something wrong (sinning) and refuse to repent. How would you like it
if someone told you that you were living in sin by teaching things that
they think are false (ie. justification by faith; calvinsim)?
Obviously you're not going to go against your conscience and change
your mind because someone told you that your interpretation is a sinful
one.
You teach against the doctrine of the Deity of Jesus Christ, and likewise the person hood of the Holy Spirit. Although you do not count your views as being worthy of church discipline, I disagree.
If I thought my views were worthy of church
discipline, what would I do, discipline myself? I obviously would
never hold views I thought worthy of "church discipline". Plus, which
church are we speaking about? By your standards the Roman Catholic
church and the Greek Orthodox church deem you worthy of church
discipline. You hold views that to them are anathema (justification by
faith alone in Christ alone; sola scriptura).
This is not a rash decision,
No, it is not rash, but it is ridiculous. You
disfellowshiped me a long time ago, and now you are going to do it
again? How many times are you going to stop considering me a brother?
What does this mean? Is it at this point that you are not allowed to
write e-mails back and forth? Might they corrupt you? Are you showing
that you agree with me by writing e-mail? Are you showing that you
agree with my Christology by watching and discussing current
events? Could the arguments be such that they are compelling and
someone might actually be persuated by them? God forbid! The monsters
I'm creating.
nor is it only my view, but is in agreement with seven people whom I highly respect and view as wise counselors: Pastor Y, Jose DeSilve, Dr. Douglas Kennard, Dr. Kurt Wise, Dr. Robert Fouts, Matt Benson, and Pastor X.
What did you think that these protestant,
evangelical pastors/elders/professors would say? "He is right, Jesus
is not God, he is the Son of God. Prolepsis/prophetic pre-existence is
a viable interpretive model. There is something called wisdom
Christology and Adam Christology." I also find it funny that Pastor Y
would tell you to disfellowship me when he considers me a part of God's
family and has personally told me that I am welcome at church Y.
When I went to a Sunday service, he gave me a hug and told me, "welcome
home." I also find it ironic that Jose would tell you to no longer
talk to me when he was more than willing be my Realtor. I supose its OK
to do business together, but having convesations on the phone and
watching documentaries together would be crossing the line and over the
top. Pastor X also told me that I was welcome to his church any
time. I assume that this means he would also talk with me as well.
The only restriction would be that I couldn't take communion during the
service. I would love to have heard your conversations with these
men. What did you tell them about me? What exactly did each of them
say? Wow, I didn't know I was that ferocious.
Anyhow, at the end of the day, I'm not really
that interested in having conditional friends. I invite friends to let
me know where they think I am wrong and so forth and they can feel free
to think I'm not going to be with them in the kingdom, but it is
another thing altogether that a friend would no longer talk with me.
Someone who does not talk to you is truly not a friend. Since I am
blessed with a group of real friends, I am fine with letting go of
conditional ones if that's what they want.
Dan